The very best that we can do is educate people so that those that choose to, can make an informed, intelligent decision. Taking the "stupid" out of it, well, that's another story....
This has been an issue since the beginning of time and will continue to be. It isn't too dramatic to bring up the eternal struggle of good and evil. As long as there are those that don't demand quality and are driven solely by price, there will be a black market filling the demand for it.
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How much of it occurs, of late at least, is driven by the economy... a result of supply and demand. However, the overall characteristics of the society can affect/impact it as well.
Each of us must decide what path we will walk.....customers and contractors alike...
Sad! I've been on the working end of fixing garbage work like this many times. Probably they got some prices and went for cheap. Looks good for a little while than starts falling apart. Aside from the crummy job, the damage this does to subfloor, framing etc to repair ends up costing twice as much to fix if they had done it right in the first place
we almost fell thru the floor to the basement taking out a similar shower structure, which was completely rotten through with a ton (literally) of concrete on top of it, then tile! I use tile-redi shower pans, they are worth every penny and no concrete to fail, sweat, expand or leak later on.
Hewitt, so true...One hates to turn down work in this economy also, but I refuse to do shoddy work because the homeowner wants 'cheap'. Have learned that lesson and it always comes back to bite the contractor, who's reputation is shot after it fails and they blame you. So, it pays to be careful what jobs you take on, because if they're so cheap that a few hundred dollars stands between a 'cheap' job and a job well done, walk away.
All we can do is try and educate. Our trades are similar to car mechanics...people often just look at price and what it looks like when they write the check. When I called to redo someone else's work after I originally bid it, I simply double the price and go from there. Many of us spend more than half of our time trying to figure out what some other knucklehead did!
C'mon guys. Reading through the comments I'm seeing a theme of "blame the cheapskate homeowner" and I don't think that is fair. I don't recall reading where he said the homeowner went cheap and that's why they are dealing with this. Poor workmanship and pricing are separate issues. One does not always get better quality by paying more. I've paid market+ prices and received something less than desired in the past. Not everyone takes pride in his/her work or honestly knows what they are
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doing. (credentialed or not)
Don't always assume a homeowner is cheaping out. Sometimes they paid a fair price and got taken or they only have so much money to work with and they are not aware of what the going rate is for what they are asking for. It's not like they can go on amazon and do a price comparison. As several of you have said, EDUCATE the homeowner. Explain what is in your quote and the work involved and maybe even give them some things to look out for if they are getting quotes from others. This could go a long way with earning their trust. Heck, find out what their budget is and tell them what they CAN get done for that amount of money. (this could probably be a whole conversation on another thread)
Teresa - nice post, I did not put the pictures up to "blame"... just educate. as an FYI in this case, the customer had done their homework (they thought) called references and took the middle bid, not the lowest. I recommend that people get some basic information on the web to be able to ask questions throughout the process. Asking them about people on the job (subs vs. employees) and time associated with them may have helped too, but not sure.
Teresa,you are right in some instances. I agree that some homeowners do not intentionally "cheap out". It is my job as a pro to educate my clients about the job at hand. If the client still makes a choice based on price then they will get what they paid for most times.
There are times, though, that when the client is offered too much info before making a commitment to my company. The information is sometimes used to tell another less expensive contractor how
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to do the job right. In this day and age of information at everyone's fingertips it's imperative that the client do their due diligence and select a company with a stellar background.
Teresa you are right in that the system does not work very well here to protect the homeowner. If pros were expected to be trained, licensed and tracked, then there would be a more standardized, universally accepted finished product, instead of everyone doing what they want.
Yes, a homeowner should be somewhat educated but pros should be called pros for a reason. From my perspective, the average job is below average quality. The reasons for this are a topic for another discussion /-:
What I'm about to post here is only to make a comment about the word, QUALITY, not to disparage anyone...
When the home we're now in was being buildt, I had subcontractors that would do ninja stuff. They'd jump in and do their part and leave, not wanting to return to correct errors.
The contractor was left to either re-do their less than stellar work or to repair what was
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already done. In frustration I asked him, "what ever became of quality (this word was part of my contractor's business name)?
His despairing answer:
"My subs do quality work. You just have to understand that the quality of twenty years ago isn't the same as the quality of today anymore".
I ran out of words in replying to that comment... (footnote: That contractor is still in the area but is not currently building houses.
2 funny Ricardo, at least he gave an honest answer. The pervading culture being what it is, very short term oriented, it's easy to feel like the game is rigged.
Many times, doing the right thing means making less money or taking a chance of losing, but things seem to even out in the long run.
In general, I think we need a trade revival. Not everyone needs a business degree, society
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cannot run that way.
Get more of our kids trained young. Instilling a good work ethic at an early age. Learning a trade in High School years should be the norm, whether or not they decide to do that for the rest of their lives. This would lead to more educated homeowners in the future, etc. and not having to call a professional every time a knob breaks off.
Books like 'Shop Class as Soul Craft' have explained the disconnect between 'those that think and those that do' started during the industrial revolution and how the negetive ramifications have played out.
We are more complete human beings if we know how to do something with our hands.
I have found great contractors who care about their work - It is such a pleasure knowing the finished project will be better than what I asked for. I depend on contractors I've used in the past to recommend people they have worked with. It has worked very well for me & I'm thankful.
I was always get accuse of over doing things. If price A is $500 and price B is $1100 ask specifically why. And do some research. Seems like 90% of the customer always goes with price A....the guy who "does it all the time" with no problems. Well he doesn't have any problems that you know about. I always tell people $5000 usually turns into $5000 later on.
I hope this person didn't pay the $1200 for $500 work.
Teresa, my posts weren't about blaming anyone either, but there are different ways to do things, and in most spec homes, the cheapest way possible is done. Those are the repair jobs I normally do - upper end homes, where shoddy work was the rule rather than the exception. Unsuspecting homeowners don't know the difference when buying a home....it's years later when failure occurs that they call me in and I try very hard to educate my clients on what should have been done the first time, so
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they'll understand why it failed to start with, NOT for the sake of blaming someone. If someone's never done this type of work, they probably have no idea whether something's done right or wrong.
I recently had a tile shower repair job where there was drywall behind the tile, no vapor barrier and definitely not waterproof. The rock behind the tile had literally melted off the wall due to grout leaks. They had issues with mold and mildew, not to mention that it simply wasn't done right to start with. I told them we'd need to take all the tile out and redo the entire thing to make it right and there answer was, NOPE, just patch it the best you can. I brought in the right materials for the patch and then they told me they shouldn't have to pay for a sheet of hardybacker (11 bucks, no markup on my part) because I didn't tell them what I was going to use, and sheetrock was cheaper. So...YES there are homeowners who go cheap and a year later want someone to blame when it fails...that's the way people are, and you can explain til you're blue in the face the right way to do it, and why it should be done that way, but like I said before, if a few hundred dollars stands between a job well done and a "just do it cheap" I now have learned to walk away. It's the contractor's reputation at stake and honestly in this economy contractors get a bad enough rap without playing the 'quality' game with customers. What I do, is I give a bid for doing it right - and if they don't accept the bid, then they move on to a cheaper contractor. Hate to turn down work, but I've had this come back on me trying to accomodate a client's budget more times than I can count. It never pays to go cheap in humoring them. You suffer later on when people are looking for who to blame the SECOND time. Some of my clients I've had for years, and they know where I live and who to call if there's ever a problem. Showers don't last forever and they need maintenance. People don't seem to 'get' that either and it goes undone until complete failure much of the time.
I'm not sure how you're supposed to know such things in a house already built and the crappy workmanship covered up. Ours was 7 years old when we bought it. I wonder how many homes in our neighborhood have showers ready to fall through the floor.
Sheila - watch for your your shower mildewing or molding within a short period of time (see picture 1) for one, or if you can "hear" drips below the shower on the finished drywall ceiling an lastly small water stains on the finished ceiling below. These will be early warning indicators.
There was mold , but we thought it was just poor housekeeping when we originally looked at the house. We discovered our problem because of efflorescence on the floor tiles, and the fact that we couldn't re-caulk the corners (caulk wouldn't stick) because there was moisture seeping out from underneath.
If you ever have a tile that pops off also, it's almost always a sure sign of water getting behind it...and before putting that tile back up, look behind it at what it is adhesed to...if it's drywall, white or green, it shouldn't be there. People think that if they are using green board, or water-'resistant' drywall, they are using the correct substrait for tile in a shower, but it is wrong wrong wrong. It isn't 'waterproof' at all, just coated differently than other gypsum drywall.
When you have the shower re-tiled, ask your contractor if they are familiar with the Schluter Shower System. I use it for all of my clients and have NEVER had any leaks or problems.
Stop blaming. My bathroom remodel was over $10 grand and my built-in tiled handicap shower leaks. Okay, maybe you consider $10,000 cheap for a shower but now what I need to know is how to fix this problem. Is there a fix that does not call for tearing everything out and spending another $10,000? Blaming is easy - suggestions for remedy seems to be too hard for you guys.
Pat....10 K is not cheap....And I feel sorry for you that its not working. Unfortunately these types of repairs can not be fixed with the wave of a magic wand...most will require getting to the root of the problem. a.k..a down to the subfloor / stud level.
Where is you shower leaking? if we know some more specific information we may be able to "target" a remedy.
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Some tile surfaces can be "re-coated" as in painted with special epoxies but these are more of a cosmetic fix.
@Pat C; Generally speaking, by the 30-something reply, we are generally way off the original topic.....as is the case here.
I recommend you start a new thread by asking a new question from the home page. Try and provide as much information as you can..even a pic or two if able.... and we will attempt to provide some recommendations. Tim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_triangl...
This has been an issue since the beginning of time and will continue to be. It isn't too dramatic to bring up the eternal struggle of good and evil. As long as there are those that don't demand quality and are driven solely by price, there will be a black market filling the demand for it. ...»
How much of it occurs, of late at least, is driven by the economy... a result of supply and demand. However, the overall characteristics of the society can affect/impact it as well.
Each of us must decide what path we will walk.....customers and contractors alike...
Don't always assume a homeowner is cheaping out. Sometimes they paid a fair price and got taken or they only have so much money to work with and they are not aware of what the going rate is for what they are asking for. It's not like they can go on amazon and do a price comparison. As several of you have said, EDUCATE the homeowner. Explain what is in your quote and the work involved and maybe even give them some things to look out for if they are getting quotes from others. This could go a long way with earning their trust. Heck, find out what their budget is and tell them what they CAN get done for that amount of money. (this could probably be a whole conversation on another thread)
There are times, though, that when the client is offered too much info before making a commitment to my company. The information is sometimes used to tell another less expensive contractor how ...»
Yes, a homeowner should be somewhat educated but pros should be called pros for a reason. From my perspective, the average job is below average quality. The reasons for this are a topic for another discussion /-:
CP
When the home we're now in was being buildt, I had subcontractors that would do ninja stuff. They'd jump in and do their part and leave, not wanting to return to correct errors.
The contractor was left to either re-do their less than stellar work or to repair what was ...»
His despairing answer:
"My subs do quality work. You just have to understand that the quality of twenty years ago isn't the same as the quality of today anymore".
I ran out of words in replying to that comment... (footnote: That contractor is still in the area but is not currently building houses.
Many times, doing the right thing means making less money or taking a chance of losing, but things seem to even out in the long run.
In general, I think we need a trade revival. Not everyone needs a business degree, society ...»
Get more of our kids trained young. Instilling a good work ethic at an early age. Learning a trade in High School years should be the norm, whether or not they decide to do that for the rest of their lives. This would lead to more educated homeowners in the future, etc. and not having to call a professional every time a knob breaks off.
Books like 'Shop Class as Soul Craft' have explained the disconnect between 'those that think and those that do' started during the industrial revolution and how the negetive ramifications have played out.
We are more complete human beings if we know how to do something with our hands.
You got me started on being philosophical!
CP
I hope this person didn't pay the $1200 for $500 work.
I recently had a tile shower repair job where there was drywall behind the tile, no vapor barrier and definitely not waterproof. The rock behind the tile had literally melted off the wall due to grout leaks. They had issues with mold and mildew, not to mention that it simply wasn't done right to start with. I told them we'd need to take all the tile out and redo the entire thing to make it right and there answer was, NOPE, just patch it the best you can. I brought in the right materials for the patch and then they told me they shouldn't have to pay for a sheet of hardybacker (11 bucks, no markup on my part) because I didn't tell them what I was going to use, and sheetrock was cheaper. So...YES there are homeowners who go cheap and a year later want someone to blame when it fails...that's the way people are, and you can explain til you're blue in the face the right way to do it, and why it should be done that way, but like I said before, if a few hundred dollars stands between a job well done and a "just do it cheap" I now have learned to walk away. It's the contractor's reputation at stake and honestly in this economy contractors get a bad enough rap without playing the 'quality' game with customers. What I do, is I give a bid for doing it right - and if they don't accept the bid, then they move on to a cheaper contractor. Hate to turn down work, but I've had this come back on me trying to accomodate a client's budget more times than I can count. It never pays to go cheap in humoring them. You suffer later on when people are looking for who to blame the SECOND time. Some of my clients I've had for years, and they know where I live and who to call if there's ever a problem. Showers don't last forever and they need maintenance. People don't seem to 'get' that either and it goes undone until complete failure much of the time.
Visit www.schluter.com for information about the system.
Good Luck!
Bob
Where is you shower leaking? if we know some more specific information we may be able to "target" a remedy. ...»
Some tile surfaces can be "re-coated" as in painted with special epoxies but these are more of a cosmetic fix.
My average bath remodels are in the 3K range.
I recommend you start a new thread by asking a new question from the home page. Try and provide as much information as you can..even a pic or two if able.... and we will attempt to provide some recommendations. Tim