Note: Please be careful William, you could not only get these subs fired, but as Woodbridge points out, void warranties. You are going to have a beautiful new home, I wouldn't cut corners now.
I don't expect anyone else to appreciate this as much as I do, but my contracts with my subs specifically prohibit them dealing direct with the client on any additional work without my permission. My primary contract with the client reads much the same way.
The primary benefit of this is it keeps us all focused as a team on the project as opposed to "looking" for more work as individuals..... I generally "reward" that respect and loyalty by
...»
allowing the subs to pick up more work in their specialty. I might add that the subs I use have "earned the right" to work with me. That may sound arrogant, but you other pros know exactly what I mean...
@ Hewitt ~ not arrogant at all, you are not only not only protecting your clients but your reputation as well. All good subs know that success is the result of not only quality work, but loyalty as well. (you don't bite the hand that feeds you)
"I don't expect anyone else to appreciate this as much as I do, but my contracts with my subs specifically prohibit them dealing direct with the
client on any additional work without my permission."
As a consumer - I would completely understand this IF someone was your "client" under contract - otherwise you are just threatening contractors who may be able to offer the consumer a fairer
...»
deal just so you can earn some extra money. That is not working in the consumers best interest - it's working in your best interest.
If a consumer wants to hire a sub directly - they should be allowed to as long as the initiation of the RFQ comes from the consumer and not the sub. A GC need not get paid for work they did not / do not do under this circumstance.
It's my hard earned money and I don't want to pay more than I have to if I am comfortable hiring a specific contractor directly.
As a consumer myself, I respect and understand your desire to not have to pay more than you have to. I think it is fair to say everyone I know, including myself is in that category.
""As a consumer - I would completely understand this IF someone was your "client" under contract -""
...»
Bill, they are clients under contract....the statements I referred to are from the contract we sign...and in the contracts I sign with my subcontractors.
Now that the whole story is open and aboveboard on the reason for this q with the background thrown in it is easier to answer accurately and in context.
Think of buying a car. You can get the base model and then buy and install aftermarket upgrades yourself or have a shop do it. Will you end up saving money or getting a better car than the factory tuned upgrade model?
...»
Maybe, maybe not. More often no, unless you really know your stuff and are a crackerjack top-notch auto guy.
Pretty much the same thing here. HOs serving as their own GC often do themselves more harm than good because they don't put in the hard work learning how to do it, what prep work to do for a sub, and how to manage the job flow.
With regards to for instance, a driveway apron, the success or failure depends as much on the road base preparation as on the concrete itself. Now who is going to do that work? Certainly not the original contractor if you are trying to go around him.
And if the person doing the prep digs out or damages a drainage system or irrigation system that is part of the house, who gets to deal with that problem and fix it? if you put a replacement engine in that new car, don't look to the auto manufacturer to stand behind the transmission and rest of the drive train when you modified it!.
What if the extra slab is placed at an elevation or location that interferes with surface drainage and the result causes flooding or mold in the new structure? You should not hold the builder responsible since you went around him to do this add-on work.
Some of this may seem extreme, but I have seen all this and worse. Cafeteria food is seldom as good as fine dining at a five star restaurant. Neither is cafeteria style home construction as good as professionally built homes.
Kimberly, send them to NJ. $125 - $150 a yard unless your buying by the truck load. And with that price, you pay for any time over 15 min for first yard, and 10 min per yard after that as a penalty. Oh, yea, a show up charge plus miles on some suppliers as well.
You have some excellent advice here on concrete and how to go about it. A good job is all about the prep, reinforcement like rebar or wire and the quality of the poor itself. Alot of variables go into concrete work.
As a consumer as well...I'm never trying to poach workers from a company working on one of my properties. Just not a good idea. I'll ask permission first from an owner if I'm interested in
...»
doing that. As Micci mentioned....you might be risking someone's job to do otherwise. As long as it is all above board...go for it.
As contractors, all of our workers sign non-compete clauses providing for triple damages in the event they take work from one of our clients but we have never had to enforce it. Our workers know that they can become owners here...that's the goal for all of them. We also pay them a percentage on work that is referred to HandyANDY and, like Tim, we allow our guys to take on some side work and save the client some money....PROVIDED that they bring it to us first AND that the client understands that there is no HandyANDY warranty on the work.
No one wants to over pay for anything...but when you hire an experienced contractor or tradesperson....you're paying for years of knowledge same as you would a surgeon. Good luck with the house!!
I am going to apologize ahead of time. It is Monday morning... I'm going to get a wee bit dramatic and personal this morning. This is off-topic as far as the original post, but relevant enough to the "tangent topic" we seem to have wandered toward. I'm not trying to speak for my fellow professionals out there...although I am hoping several can agree with my thoughts... otherwise I may need a "tweek" in my thought process.
...»
I get up every morning and give thanks to be living in such a great country, flaws and all. Arguably, one of the benefits is our market-based system of supply and demand.
My tiny company is but a mere microdot on the portrait of our economy. I am grateful that I get to choose where I fit in the range of "suppliers" that service the consumer demand for home improvement.
I am blessed that I get to choose my clients. From a different perspective, I am more grateful they get to choose me. This doesn't come by accident.
I am not in a position to serve those consumers with a "flea-market" shopping mentality.
I stand by my previous comments a few posts up regarding my contracts prohibiting subcontractors under contract from discussing further work with my clients under contract without my permission. They would lead one to believe I was protecting my own interests, demonstrating pure selfishness on my part for a few extra bucks in my pocket.
Well, the truth is, I am selfish. You see, I'm real serious about selecting my clients....and when they sign with me, they know that whatever comes up in the adventure we call "remodeling", I will always have their best interest at heart. That means that every little thing that happens on their property while I "have the keys" as their general contractor, I feel responsible for, whether I am contractually or not.
Maybe that comes from my military background as a commanding officer where you are ultimately responsible. Maybe it comes from my pilot background....because when the stick was in my hand and I wanted to bank right, everybody behind me had to bank right as well.
It could be the reason I take such responsibility is because the first words out of my mouth when a prospective client tells me that they have chosen me to handle their project, is "Thank you for your faith and trust in me".
I will not allow, under any circumstances, anyone working for me on my client's property while I am in charge, to think they can walk around, point out flaws or additional work that needs to be done, and offer to do that work on the side. I want them focused and concentrating on the job at hand and not on soliciting the homeowner. My response is the same if it is the Homeowner that does the soliciting.
To date, other than a few minor incidents, I have not had a single subcontractor "violate" this policy... but this isn't a surprise. My subcontractors are not my subcontractors by accident. They have "earned" the right by their performance and their dedication to our common goal of taking care of the customer. By the same token, my customers are not my customers by accident either...
Just as a point of reference, I allow my subcontractors to discuss freely with the homeowners any issues or questions that arise, up to the point where the details and/or cost comes up, in which case I am notified. This is an indication of the trust we have in each other and it pays off in the long run for the homeowner. And for the record, I approve most of that extra work and don't make a direct nickel off any of it that doesn't require my expertise or impact my contract.
One last point...
When anyone tells me, in an effort to "negotiate" my prices, that a particular company or individual that I am familiar with will do a certain project for a certain amount, often my comment is simply...."that sounds about right..... that is all they are worth".
Good post Hewitt. I too interview my clients for the special mix. And I also are very careful in choosing my subs. Although getting away from those larger projects, your 100% on with your business model.
@ Bill...I believe Hewitt WAS referring to "contracts" ~that being said, The contractor/GC have already vetted, inspected quality, paid insurance, paid for education (whether it be school or life experience), spent countless hours on the phone when the "guy" didn't show up, so that YOU as the consumer have a home being built w/guys that DO show up, and DO know how to nail siding w/out puncturing water pipes, and DO come and tell you if a mistake was made instead of burying it under the
...»
concrete, or behind the sheet rock, or between the floor joists for you to find months or years later, ETC....
I have never known a contractor who didn't encourage, endorse, or help his "guys" out by referring side jobs, smaller jobs, and even starting new companies of their own.....when he knows they are ready! It becomes a very personal relationship.
But, Bill, it still comes down to trust, loyalty and HONESTY (HONOR? PRIDE?). Without that you/we have nothing.
I am the guy who sent out the original post. All I wanted to know was the cost of concrete so at some time in the future, if I so decided, I could add an apron to my garage entrance. Now the subject has gotten way off track simply because I said I am looking at some of the general contractors subs to quote me projects that I may or may not pursue in the future many of which might be a year or two after the builder is long gone and forgotten. The only reason I am requesting the subs
...»
business cards is because I like their work or not like their work. (better the devil you know). My contractor is contracted to build the house and nothing else. I would not ask him to put in a retaining wall in the back year two years from now. But, I might ask the masons who did the brick fascia and concrete foundation to quote me a price next year because I liked their work. This has nothing to do with taking work away from the guy building the house. That's not his job. He builds houses. The subs do projects!
Please accept my apologies as well....point well taken. We are all, homeowners and contractors alike, growing in knowledge by being a part of Hometalk. I know it was not the intent of your post/question, but it became an excellent opportunity for us to discuss a topic(s) that might have been better off discussed on a contractor only board in some circles. We, on the other hand, believe that
...»
knowledge is power....and we believe the more our homeowners know, the better off we look. We don't want to "censor" the news....As such, we would not want you to not be a part of the discussion as we have nothing we want to hide. Your input is invaluable as we often get wrapped around the axle, choke on the dust and forget where we are trying to take this wagon train.
Again, thank you for your patience and your contribution. If you have kids, remember the first time you let them settle an argument on their own without you stepping in? Well, there you go... :) Thanks..Tim
Hi William...as often happens with these posts...many of write from the contractor perspective or to aid others and not just the original poster. All the best and keep posting!
NOT SO FAST - slab size should be 8' x 10' ( sawed or formed jnts ) according to all common sense + aci recommended dimensions IF you use 4" thick
conc,,, wire mesh does add strength to conc but ONLY while its in tension - after the conc has cured, it holds the broken pieces together ;-) there are 3 types of conc - 1 that hasn't cracked, 1 that will crack, & 1 that was done correctly & will not crack,,, most cracks because the owner
...»
wouldn't invest the $$$ to have it done properly,,,. generally cracks are due to overloading ( too much weight ) OR joints not being properly installed,,, parked vehicles weigh more than rolling vehicles,,, aci does NOT recommend steel OR wire in 4" slabs UNLESS proper placement can be guaranteed - no rebar in 4" as its impossible to have 2" ' cover '
Here is your ballpark price based off of current concrete prices in Raleigh.
For a 20' x 16' x 4" concrete slab, grading is not included, a good budget would be $1,500. This does not include any Design nor permits, just the cost of pouring the slab.
Ridge Contracting, I'll give you a shout when I'm ready to have the slab poured, However, like the person said after your note, What about forming ,finishing and steel. Also, I'll probably go with 6 inches thick.
Since I have not seen his site, the grading work is not included. It is very possible that once the grading is completed to allow for the stone base, Vapor Barrier, WWF, and Concrete that there is very little if any form work needed.
If you increase the depth of the concrete the amount of concrete will be increased roughly 2 cyds and the cost of excavting and soil removal will increase as well.
Yamini is right on the expansion joints....make sure they're sufficient to prevent future cracks and regarding the use of the subcontractors....make sure you get proof of general liability and workers comp insurance in order to avoid problems
generally speaking, expansion joints aren't found in a driveway,,, contraction & isolation joints, however, ARE used & each 1 has a particular purpose,,, again, most concrete cracks either because the jointing pattern in incorrect OR the joints were not placed at the proper time,,, i made a very good living for 10 years doing just that item alone - sawing joints in green concrete.
The primary benefit of this is it keeps us all focused as a team on the project as opposed to "looking" for more work as individuals..... I generally "reward" that respect and loyalty by ...»
http://www.extremehowto.com/xh/article.asp?...
Also, the average cost for concrete is $75 per cubic yard.
client on any additional work without my permission."
As a consumer - I would completely understand this IF someone was your "client" under contract - otherwise you are just threatening contractors who may be able to offer the consumer a fairer ...»
If a consumer wants to hire a sub directly - they should be allowed to as long as the initiation of the RFQ comes from the consumer and not the sub. A GC need not get paid for work they did not / do not do under this circumstance.
It's my hard earned money and I don't want to pay more than I have to if I am comfortable hiring a specific contractor directly.
As a consumer myself, I respect and understand your desire to not have to pay more than you have to. I think it is fair to say everyone I know, including myself is in that category.
""As a consumer - I would completely understand this IF someone was your "client" under contract -"" ...»
Bill, they are clients under contract....the statements I referred to are from the contract we sign...and in the contracts I sign with my subcontractors.
Think of buying a car. You can get the base model and then buy and install aftermarket upgrades yourself or have a shop do it. Will you end up saving money or getting a better car than the factory tuned upgrade model? ...»
Maybe, maybe not. More often no, unless you really know your stuff and are a crackerjack top-notch auto guy.
Pretty much the same thing here. HOs serving as their own GC often do themselves more harm than good because they don't put in the hard work learning how to do it, what prep work to do for a sub, and how to manage the job flow.
With regards to for instance, a driveway apron, the success or failure depends as much on the road base preparation as on the concrete itself. Now who is going to do that work? Certainly not the original contractor if you are trying to go around him.
And if the person doing the prep digs out or damages a drainage system or irrigation system that is part of the house, who gets to deal with that problem and fix it? if you put a replacement engine in that new car, don't look to the auto manufacturer to stand behind the transmission and rest of the drive train when you modified it!.
What if the extra slab is placed at an elevation or location that interferes with surface drainage and the result causes flooding or mold in the new structure? You should not hold the builder responsible since you went around him to do this add-on work.
Some of this may seem extreme, but I have seen all this and worse. Cafeteria food is seldom as good as fine dining at a five star restaurant. Neither is cafeteria style home construction as good as professionally built homes.
As a consumer as well...I'm never trying to poach workers from a company working on one of my properties. Just not a good idea. I'll ask permission first from an owner if I'm interested in ...»
As contractors, all of our workers sign non-compete clauses providing for triple damages in the event they take work from one of our clients but we have never had to enforce it. Our workers know that they can become owners here...that's the goal for all of them. We also pay them a percentage on work that is referred to HandyANDY and, like Tim, we allow our guys to take on some side work and save the client some money....PROVIDED that they bring it to us first AND that the client understands that there is no HandyANDY warranty on the work.
No one wants to over pay for anything...but when you hire an experienced contractor or tradesperson....you're paying for years of knowledge same as you would a surgeon. Good luck with the house!!
I get up every morning and give thanks to be living in such a great country, flaws and all. Arguably, one of the benefits is our market-based system of supply and demand.
My tiny company is but a mere microdot on the portrait of our economy. I am grateful that I get to choose where I fit in the range of "suppliers" that service the consumer demand for home improvement.
I am blessed that I get to choose my clients. From a different perspective, I am more grateful they get to choose me. This doesn't come by accident.
I am not in a position to serve those consumers with a "flea-market" shopping mentality.
I stand by my previous comments a few posts up regarding my contracts prohibiting subcontractors under contract from discussing further work with my clients under contract without my permission. They would lead one to believe I was protecting my own interests, demonstrating pure selfishness on my part for a few extra bucks in my pocket.
Well, the truth is, I am selfish. You see, I'm real serious about selecting my clients....and when they sign with me, they know that whatever comes up in the adventure we call "remodeling", I will always have their best interest at heart. That means that every little thing that happens on their property while I "have the keys" as their general contractor, I feel responsible for, whether I am contractually or not.
Maybe that comes from my military background as a commanding officer where you are ultimately responsible. Maybe it comes from my pilot background....because when the stick was in my hand and I wanted to bank right, everybody behind me had to bank right as well.
It could be the reason I take such responsibility is because the first words out of my mouth when a prospective client tells me that they have chosen me to handle their project, is "Thank you for your faith and trust in me".
I will not allow, under any circumstances, anyone working for me on my client's property while I am in charge, to think they can walk around, point out flaws or additional work that needs to be done, and offer to do that work on the side. I want them focused and concentrating on the job at hand and not on soliciting the homeowner. My response is the same if it is the Homeowner that does the soliciting.
To date, other than a few minor incidents, I have not had a single subcontractor "violate" this policy... but this isn't a surprise. My subcontractors are not my subcontractors by accident. They have "earned" the right by their performance and their dedication to our common goal of taking care of the customer. By the same token, my customers are not my customers by accident either...
Just as a point of reference, I allow my subcontractors to discuss freely with the homeowners any issues or questions that arise, up to the point where the details and/or cost comes up, in which case I am notified. This is an indication of the trust we have in each other and it pays off in the long run for the homeowner. And for the record, I approve most of that extra work and don't make a direct nickel off any of it that doesn't require my expertise or impact my contract.
One last point...
When anyone tells me, in an effort to "negotiate" my prices, that a particular company or individual that I am familiar with will do a certain project for a certain amount, often my comment is simply...."that sounds about right..... that is all they are worth".
Bob
I have never known a contractor who didn't encourage, endorse, or help his "guys" out by referring side jobs, smaller jobs, and even starting new companies of their own.....when he knows they are ready! It becomes a very personal relationship.
But, Bill, it still comes down to trust, loyalty and HONESTY (HONOR? PRIDE?). Without that you/we have nothing.
Please accept my apologies as well....point well taken. We are all, homeowners and contractors alike, growing in knowledge by being a part of Hometalk. I know it was not the intent of your post/question, but it became an excellent opportunity for us to discuss a topic(s) that might have been better off discussed on a contractor only board in some circles. We, on the other hand, believe that ...»
Again, thank you for your patience and your contribution. If you have kids, remember the first time you let them settle an argument on their own without you stepping in? Well, there you go... :) Thanks..Tim
I hope my contribution was helpful.
conc,,, wire mesh does add strength to conc but ONLY while its in tension - after the conc has cured, it holds the broken pieces together ;-) there are 3 types of conc - 1 that hasn't cracked, 1 that will crack, & 1 that was done correctly & will not crack,,, most cracks because the owner ...»
Here is your ballpark price based off of current concrete prices in Raleigh.
For a 20' x 16' x 4" concrete slab, grading is not included, a good budget would be $1,500. This does not include any Design nor permits, just the cost of pouring the slab.
What about forming, finishing and placing steel?
This budget includes:
Plastic Vapor Barrier SF 320.00 ...»
Expansion Controll Material LF 72.00
Soil Poisoning SF 320.00
Slab Prep SF 320.00
57 Stone CY 9.14
Slab Concrete CY 4.05
Pour & Finish Slab SF 320.00
WWF SF 320.00
Sawing Labor LF 52
If you increase the depth of the concrete the amount of concrete will be increased roughly 2 cyds and the cost of excavting and soil removal will increase as well.