Question about tannins bleeding through on this painted table

by M&M Embellishments

Answered

HELP! I forgot to put down my Zinsner Seal Coat prior to starting to stain my table. I'm not sure how old this table is nor do I know what kind of wood. My question is... After I get done doing my staining technique of the dogwood art, could I put that Seal coat down on TOP of the stained piece and would that stop any tannins from coming through??

question about tannins bleeding through on this painted table

3 answers

Darla on May 22, 2016
Any finish coat you put on - sealer, wax, varnish, tung oil or polyurethane - should stop tannins from coming through. As long as the wood is dry, tannins shouldn't ruin anything anyway, Why are you worried about it?

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- M&M Embellishments on May 22, 2016
  @Darla Oh good!! I have read a couple of posts on here that they will bleed through unless you use a sealer ( on certain types of woods). I usually use the sealer BEFORE I start the staining proces, but I forgot this time and was worried it would ruin the work.
  
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- Sandy Nunez on May 28, 2018
  
  I had kitchen cabinets installeD. Now after a few years there is a white film bleeding through the stain. I can wipe it off, but it keeps coming back. Any way to stop it permanently?
  
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Rachel Lynn | queenbeeofhoneydos.com on May 22, 2016
Okay, I think that your question is just a little confusing about what your intentions are, but correct me if I am wrong - You have stripped this table and are now doing stain art, on which you do not want tannins to come through? If so, then no. A seal after the fact would not stop them from coming through the stain. Staining through finishes happens because there is a solvent action that occurs between the tannins in the wood and whatever you are applying. For example, paint can dissolve the tannins and reactivate them. Then when the paint dries, those reactivated tannins wick up through the paint. So, if the stain dissolves those tannins, as it dries and cures they will begin to show. A sealer on top won't do anything for what is below. But tannins are usually only concerning if painting. However, I feel like I am still confused on what exactly you are doing. You wouldn't use a sealer prior to staining, you would instead use a conditioner. Is it your intention to prevent blotchiness?Are you perhaps trying to stop the grain from showing through your artwork, or is there something else going on that I am not getting from the information above? Guess I should have asked that before giving the answer above. :-) but if you can clarify, I m sure that we can help you.

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- M&M Embellishments on May 22, 2016
  @Rachel Lynn @queenbeeofhoneydos.com Ok, that's what I was afraid of. So, I typically strip the wood, apply the sealer if it is a wood I am afraid the tannins will bleed through - btw, this has never happened to me, but I have been told it could and with all of the time I put into the artwork, I have done this so I don't have to worry. I have used the pre stain also to prevent the blotchiness, but it CAN interfere with my technique, so I don't always do that and I did not use it this time. I have used that sealer prior to the staining because othrs have told me it is a preventative. I'm trying to think now on which pieces I have used it on.... maybe it was just when I used the staiining art on top of paint. Yes, now that I think about it, it was only when I did my art on painted pieces. However, are you saying i could NOT use it prior to staining on raw wood? Wow, now I'm getting myself confused! LOL Let's put it this way... what would your recommendation be to put down on raw wood before I start doing my stain art? if anything. Thanks so much for your help!!!
  
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- Rachel Lynn | queenbeeofhoneydos.com on May 22, 2016
  @M&M Embellishments I guess this all depends on what you are meaning by "sealer." I think of sealer as what the name implies, i.e. it seals and prevents things from getting through. There are however "sanding sealers" and "dewaxed shellacs" which are technically sealers, but the terms are often used interchangeably with conditioners. Many wood workers use the sealers as conditioners; however, they typically thin these down so that they do not prevent the stain from penetrating the wood. Technically, a sealer is intended to "seal" the wood and a conditioner is intended to prep it. But they are basically the same thing , chemically. The only real difference is that the sealers would be more concentrated. So, depending on how it is used, you may say to me, "Po-tay-to, po-tah-to." :-) So to your question, I think that you have obviously been doing this long enough to get the terrific results that you are producing, So, don't let me be the one to discourage you. I was just answering based on what I and many other woodworkers are doing. But if you are curious as to why I said to not apply sealer before the stain, that would be in the case of full strength. If you do, you are probably staining mostly the sealer and not the wood. But then again, maybe that is what you want. But back to your question: On raw wood I would either use a 1) wood conditioner or a wiped on sanding sealer/dewaxed shellac that has been thinned down by 50%. (making it into a conditioner) But at full strength a sanding sealer/dewaxed shellac would be meant to go over the stain to prep for something like a polyurethane finish. It is intended to provides a seal that doesn't raise the grain, which makes for a smoother surface for the poly. And now I will shut-up ;-)
  
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- M&M Embellishments on May 22, 2016
  @Rachel Lynn @queenbeeofhoneydos.com OK! I think I get it.... The Zinsner (sp) Seal Coat is a dewaxed shellac so I think that is why I I was told to use it. However, I wouldn't have thinned it down ( so I'm glad I forgot to use it! :). Do you think a dewaxed shellac and a Pre STain conditioner are the same thing, then if the dewaxed shellac is thinned down? The reason I don't likeusing it, is because the stain doesn't seem to penetrate as well as I would like. I can tell this because the stain just gets swirled around when trying to blend instead of how I like to blend it. OH MY - there is so much to learn! And how do you know so much -- you look entirely too young to have all of this wealth of information! :) I keep reading and reading, but that can get so confusing because everyone has different thoughts. UGH! One more question, if I don't use a pre stain, what is the negative of that other than to not have it splotchy? OK, TWO more questions... for a smooth finish, then, I should use the dewaxed shellac PRIOR to poly?? I really do appreciate your help!
  
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- Rachel Lynn | queenbeeofhoneydos.com on May 22, 2016
  @M&M Embellishments Well thanks for thinking that I look young. I am 43 now, but I get that a lot. My experience I credit to my grandfather, a master craftsman who started me out in his workshop when I was just 7. From then on, I have been fascinated by how things are made and have continued to build furniture and craft just like he did. But being a woman, I took it several steps farther and got into design, and cosmetics manufacturing (incidentally, the cosmetics manufacturing is where I learned the most about chemical reactions). However, I do not consider myself an expert and still have much to learn. But I like to help others when I can, and I like to learn from others, as well. By the way, your artwork is beautiful! But I digress. The only negative to not using a conditioner is that the wood won't receive the stain as uniformly as it will with it - i.e blotchiness. Yes a conditioner and a thinned dewaxed shellac do the same thing. Some may give better results because different types work better with different stains (oil/gel/water based,etc.). Also, too much or too thick of a product will seal off the wood and make it harder for the stain to penetrate - similar to what you are describing. You don't have to use the sanding sealer prior to poly, but that was its original intent. You can sand and coat and sand and coat again with poly. Or you can reduce your work by applying the sanding sealer between the stain and the poly. It's really just a personal preference. But the sanding sealer is meant to fill the pores in porous wood so that 1) the wood doesn't just keep soaking up the poly (or whatever you are using for the top coat). It also lays down a coat that is easier to sand smooth. I only use for very porous wood when I want a completely flat surface, like walnut. I wouldn't use it on anything that I wanted to look rustic or reclaimed. Also, you have to be careful when applying finishes on top of sanding sealer. The thing that makes it work so nicely (a type of chemical soap ingredient) can also make it shrink and crack the top finish later on. (see how that cosmetic thing works) ;-) I would just keep doing what you know works, and experiment like crazy to see if something better is out there. Live and learn. :-)
  
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- M&M Embellishments on May 22, 2016
  Wonderful! You have helped me a lot! A LOT!!! I really appreciate it! I need to make myself a binder and printout all this information I learn from friends like you because my old brain doesn't absorb things like it should! :) I think the sanding sealer will be perfect for me because when I sand too quickly (before 6 coats of water- based poly, it takes some of the design/ stain) I'm going to go find you and become a stalker ;) Thanks again!!!
  
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Darla on May 22, 2016
If you are using wood stain, it's made to use on wood, including oak and other tannin-rich woods. I use stain sealer on soft woods like pine and most plywood so the stain will go on evenly and not blotchy.

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