Rain water coming in walkout basement. Caulking doesn't help. Source?

Question

When it rains in certain direction water comes in on the wall above walkout door and adjacent windows. Several professionals have caulked but it doesn't help. There is no water damage anywhere except where the water comes in. can't find the source of leak. Please help.
House is in olathe, KS. Does anyone know of right contractor around the area, who would be able to investigate and fix the leak.

Woodbridge Environmental Tiptophouse.com · Answer

Water is a very difficult thing to detect. And most contractors do not have a clue on how it gets into the house. Most think that simply caulking around a door or a window will solve this issue, and in some cases it will but still on others it may make matters worse.

Water not only needs to be prevented from coming in, which is the reason to caulk, it also needs a way out, another reason not to caulk. What determines what is caulked and what is not is the methods of the door, window and or siding install. While they all have different methods of installations, particularly with siding, they all require a few basic details which almost all installers fail to do. That is proper flashing details. A door as an example requires a header flashing to prevent water from getting behind the door frame creating a leak. Some doors have them some do not when installed. If they do not, the critical part of the install at that point is the quality of the house wrap used when the door was put in. If it was done wrong, water that gets behind the siding will simply flow behind the wrap and leak in, All the caulking in the world will not stop this occurrence. In fact it may make it worse. 
If a flashing was installed as it shows in ALL window and door install sheets to use. And that flashing was incorrectly caulked it too will drive water in and around the door frame causing the leaks your experiencing.

The fix is simple. You need to pull off all of the caulking, determine exactly how the door was installed, with or without a header flashing then move ahead after that.

I have a few questions.
Type of siding? Brick, vinyl, stucco, ??? 
Kind of windows, Double hung, casement, fixed pane??? 
Can you take a few photos of the water damage and the area and repairs that were attempted? These can help a lot in giving you additional advice on how to solve this issue.

I have had leaks come into basements that were caused by gable end vents over 25 feet away. But without additional information It is impossible to provide you with enough information on how to proceed.

Vintage Restorations.....Formerly Closet Furniture · Answer

My guess is that the contractor when installing the windows and doors did not put the Tyvek up properly (common mistake)..It needs to be overlapping the door and window flanges to be effective. A retro fix would be to take the trim molding off the window and door then take 'Dupont Straight Flash' it is 4 1/2' wide and self adhesive on one side and weatherproof on the other and simply cover the Flanges on the doors and windows, it should cover the breach between the door flange and the framing that the Tyvek is attached to. BTW, start with the bottom piece then the sides overlapping the bottom and then the top piece overlapping the sides. Reinstall the trim and caulk with exterior 'Paintable' waterproof caulking. After Caulking wet the tip of your finger and run it over the bead to force into gaps then wipe off excess. If you need to you can also contact me with your phone # and I will call you back and explain live.

Woodbridge Environmental Tiptophouse.com · Answer

While Tyvak may help, its main function is not that of a water barrier around windows and doors, its function is to prevent vapor transmission through the wall. Only the correct flashing will prevent water from entering into the wall structure. As soon as the staple or nail the door or window into the opening any real water proofing ability of the house wrap stops. 
It is very common for contractors to believe that installing a vapor barrier and caulking will do the trick. And often it does. However even more often it fails shortly after the construction is done and everyone leaves. I have seen this first hand when investigating for mold issues and doing energy audits looking for air leaks. 
The issue is time and money. Contractors are in the business of making money, anytime they can cut corners because of a new product that claims to do the work of many other products for less money, they go for it. They do not understand exactly how to use the new product and it oftentimes goes in incorrectly. Just like you said, its about how the vapor barrier is installed. Working from the bottom up. They simply cover over the opening wrap and tape, thinking this will be fine. They could be no farther then the truth when doing this.

Mit · Answer

Thank you for taking time to review. I am attaching some pictures. What kind contractor would be right to fix the issue. As I mentioned we have called many handyman and contractor but haven't been able to fix it.

Woodbridge Environmental Tiptophouse.com · Answer

A good general contractor should be able to fix this for you. However it depends upon his or her knowledge about proper water proofing. While there are many good ones around, most do not know enough about flashing details and the correct methods of repair. Perhaps a good architect or structural engineer that could write up how to fix it and then hire someone to do the work. This way if it fails again, you have someone that would be responsible to make the repairs on their dime. 
Also if you look at the door and or window manufacture you should with a little digging on the internet find the manufactures installation requirements that show the details on the proper method to flash and seal their products. I know Anderson, Pella and several others do have these available. You just need to look for them. 
Where do you live? State, City. Perhaps others knowing where you reside may know someone that they could suggest. 
A photo of the area and the whole front of the home may shed some light on where to start also. What kind of siding do you have? Age of home? All helps.

Woodbridge Environmental Tiptophouse.com · Answer

Here is a link that opens up a PDF file on how to properly flash just about everything. Hope this helps. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CEgQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.engr.psu.edu%2Fphrc%2FConference%2F2012%2520Conference%2FPresentations%25202012%2FHousing%2FSteve%2520Long%2520-%2520Flashing_Long_Patrick_2-3-12.pdf&ei=z9geUvWsLvK9sASbqoDoDw&usg=AFQjCNGj9iEG7bOPDapILMWliOCpe-I9Zw&sig2=pZ3Ydfly3jigpwyqTKvFgg&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cWc

Vintage Restorations.....Formerly Closet Furniture · Answer

Hey Woodbridge, I went to a 6 hour class on how to use Tyvek properly and how to flash with Dupont straight flash, never had a leak....there's and old saying in the house building business, 'Think like a raindrop' This is one of our houses that doesn't leak...and it's done the way I explained. BTW the side with all the windows sustains wind driven rain and snow all winter in NH with no leaks...but We don't know how to flash! Did you know that Tyvek has to be inspected by the BI before you can put up siding?

Woodbridge Environmental Tiptophouse.com · Answer

I hear you Closet, but the manufactures of the windows still require flashing to warranty their product. And never said you do not know how to flash, but as a certified moisture analyst and having done hundreds of evaluations if not thousands over the past 20 years and have seen rot and decay on even the best house wrapping job, both along the shore and inland, and with those who claim to know what they are doing. Most do not have a clue. Your an acceptation to the rule. But I can tell you it is not so much about the flashing as it has to do with the windows. Unless they are solid welded vinyl they leak. And you can do all the wrapping you want with any product, if the water has no way to get out. It rots and finds its way in. And until I see from the manufactures instructions saying you do not have to use pan or header flashing in their install. Not changing my opinion on that.

I think the biggest issue in the trades are no one spends any time to learn how to do things the right way. I have seen contractors with years of experience in building working with a new product and destroy the house they were building. Take TGI joists. It took several years before contractors learned how to set them, handle them and store them, to use squash blocks, how to properly cut and drill into them. And when we would come to the job site and call them on it. The first thing they said. I have been doing this for years so I know what I am doing.

Wrapping a house in Tyvek or any house wrap and using straight flash is fine, and you said you never had a leak. Did you open up the walls or simply assume because no one complained or saw water that the install worked. Do not lull yourself to sleep thinking everything is fine. While you may do the perfect job every time. And it sounds s though perhaps you understand how to do this, Its the next guy that comes along and installs the trims and siding and damages all that careful work you have done. And just because the factory shows you fancy videos with high winds etc. This is a fresh flashing detail, on clean and dry wood. What about them showing you real word installs. Dust on everything, damp or even wet wood to cover, window guys that are paid not by the quality of the work, but how fast they can put them in? This is where the issues begin.

As far as inspections. I can show you hundreds of homes that pass house wrap inspections, framing, insulation, electrical etc. And they were all done wrong one way or the other. The inspection process at least in my area is a farce. They spend less then 15 min on the job site because of the work load and leave. If they know the builder, they do not even spend that much time. It is so bad that on my own home a few years back I had to have my sewer pipe replaced. The inspector came by in the morning and gave the contractor the green ticket for approval and he had not even taken his machine off of the trailer! I can tell you however he no longer works for my town.

One part of my business is doing EIFS inspections on federally funded jobs. Required by law I might add when federal monies are involved, I have seen nightmares from contractors who claim to have been 'doing it that way for years and never had a problem'. And I can show you thousands of law suites where I have been asked to work as an expert witness and have opened up their projects to find a lot of damage that no one even thought existed.

I applaud you in learning the right way to do things and to put into practice what you have surely spent a lot of money on in learning the correct methods to do things. It is unfortunate that more contractors do not do this as well. And I certainly would not put you down for practicing what you learned. However until the manufactures of the doors and windows put into their install instructions that you can use the wrapping methods you used instead of pan or header flashing you may some day find yourself in a court room defending the very system that you were taught how to use properly when the customer complains of a mold issue within their wall. As inspectors of homes we must follow the guidelines that the manufacture sets for their products. And I can assure you that they are glad no one does. Because as soon as a leak develops they run right to their instruction guidelines and show everyone that the reason for the damage is because no one followed their instructions and has nothing to do with their product.

Vintage Restorations.....Formerly Closet Furniture · Answer

We always install to manufacturers specs, After you build and repair homes for an extended period you tend to be able to walk into a home or room and tell with some accuracy what is wrong on the face of it and through further investigation in the affected area you can tell exactly what's wrong and how to fix the problem. First thing is to use quality windows...we use Pella or high end Anderson windows and doors. BTW Tyvek put on the seminar and the video was short and the rest of the time was spent hands on till we all got it right and an Anderson rep was there to make sure that we all knew how to install the windows properly in conjunction with the Tyvek and at the time (new Product) straight flash to produce watertight windows and doors. It wasn't cheap, $350/person but they did have a nice BBQ lunch afterwards...!!! @ Closet Furniture 'Good Enough is Not Good Enough' Perfection is good enough. Another BTW, the BI's in Meredith and Moultonboro are wicked.
Alan

Woodbridge Environmental Tiptophouse.com · Answer

To fix the leak they need to find it first. Most contractors simply caulk, caulk and then caulk some more. They need to pull off trims around doors and lower windows first. Then do the same at they move up. As Closet said follow the rain drop. It moves down. You may end up at the top of the highest window before you find the issue.

They also may need to pull the siding. This is not an uncommon thing to have to do. The T-111 siding you have can be a pain to deal with as its both the sheathing and the siding combined. My guess is the water is entering from around one of the windows. The Z flashing between each row of plywood does not normally cause any issues. Unless they did not overlap at the end of the flashing enough and even then this normally does not result in the amount of moisture you have coming in.

My suggestion is to start low and work up. Using a lawn sprinkler on a light spray let it hit just above the lowest point above the door and window area. Then keep an eye on if it starts coming in. After 20 min or so, move the spray up so it just hits the bottom of the windows above. Careful not to spray on the top half. After another 20 min or so, still no leak, start spraying higher. Keep going like this until you begin to see water come in. That is then the area you need to begin your focus on.

Remember the leak does not have to be that big to create a large stain. In fact the smaller the leak or hole, the more water it can draw into the wall cavity with the least amount of effort. Capillary action will draw water in fast. Add to that wind pressures during a storm and you end up with a vacuum effect on the hole acting like a straw pulling the water up and into the wall cavity.

The primary reason why no one has fixed or found it is, this is a difficult time consuming job that can be a real pain to do. It takes lots of patience and time to determine exactly where it comes from. And most contractors do not want to spend that type of time. They rather be tearing out and building then to spend the time to figure out what is happening. Also the type of construction your home is about the lowest on the scale of quality. Looks nice but its low cost construction none the less. They can bang out these exteriors fast and cheep. And as a result they often have these leaks. I have seen them a lot.

If your handy, you can do a lot of the effort in locating the issue. Try the water method first. If you have no success then you will need to begin pulling off the trim starting from the lower areas and working up. You will know right away if your at the suspected area as you will see the stains and the decay that the water has brought with it when it got behind the siding. Also any caulk needs to be carefully checked. Caulk fails a lot because of adhesion issues. If a large amount of caulk has been placed in an opening it can fail much faster then a thin tiny amount. Ideally the thinner the caulk is the more stretch it has so it sticks to the material better. If you put a big blob of caulk on a corner it becomes to ridged and if the siding moves it simply tears off of the siding becoming that capillary leak. Even if it looks fine, you need to take a dentist pick and check the caulk where it is supposed to be adhering to the wood. If you can successfully pull the caulk off of the siding where it should be sticking well. That can be part of the issue.

Think of it like this. If you take a thick rubber band that is about four inches long and hold it you can easily stretch it and move it about. Now cut that down to the same length as it is wide. Then try to hold it and do the same. It slips out of your fingers before you can really stretch it. Well the same thing happens with caulk. If the joint is fat and not a lot of area for the caulk to grip to it tears off causing adhesion failure. If the joint is thin in relation to the amount of surface area that its gripping on to, it will stretch and move and not fail. The ideal detail for caulk is an hour glass shape. Being thin in the middle where it stretches and fat on the top and bottom where it grips the materials being sealed. Backer rod acts as a release to create the half shape of the hour glass while the tooling or using your finger creates the other half making it appear like an hour glass. On corners ideally a wax crayon should be run in the corner to act as the release point where the caulk will not grip, then tooling the exposed side of the caulk will create the same effect as the hour glass. Making the corner last a long time. This is basic 101 caulking details on stucco siding as well as any other project where caulk is required to act as a water barrier. and is no different then your siding as well.

If the contractors have caulked and caulked again without removal of the old. That can be the issue all along. All adhesive caulking needs to be removed back down to the bare wood. It should ideally be on the raw wood and not on the paint as well. Paint has been designed to release soils to prevent build up of dirt over time. Caulk is no different. It simply does not adhere as well as it would if it was done directly onto the siding before it was painted.

So start with the spray method and take your time. Give the water a chance to seep in. Or at least the next time it starts to rain, try to determine how long it takes before you begin to see the leak. So when you spray you will have an idea on how long you need to wait before you begin to expect a leak. 
If that does not work, the trims will need to come off until you find the issue. With the amount of staining this has been going on for quite some time. Using a awl, test the wood to see if you find any decay. That may help you find this even if everything looks ok.

Vintage Restorations.....Formerly Closet Furniture · Answer

I did notice your missing some drip edge above your windows and above the trim on the doors

KC Plumber Pro · Answer

@Mit This is actually a fairly common occurrence around Johnson County. It appears that you have two totally separate leaks. It would be helpful to see the outside of the other leak where the knee wall sits. I would be curious to see what the grade looks like there.

As for the window area, I would guess that the windows were not installed properly. There were a lot of changes starting to take place around 2000 in how windows had to be installed in new homes. There were a lot of framers that installed windows over the top of the siding. The windows should have been set with caulking and tapped to prevent leaks. As one of the other contractors mentioned there is also a specific way that the TyVek has to be installed. If they messed up on any of these steps it can result in a leak.

Unless you want to start tearing off window trim and possibly pulling the windows your best bet is to make sure you have caulked everything. I would make sure that the tops and sides of even the upper windows are sealed properly.

Marion Nesbitt · Answer

Agree with Closet Furniture. Would get a drip edge installed to see if that helps.

Betty Johnson · Answer

It looks like there isn't any kind of overhang to channel the water elsewhere. Do you have gutters by the roofline? Something as simple as an awning above the windows and doors might help as well. Have you called in water damage specialists to have them check the source of the leak? http://www.akrestoration.com/water-damage

Kala Professional Restoration services · Answer

In my view,Flooding in your basement can lead to serious damage, so it’s a very good idea to invest in a submersible pump. These are relatively inexpensive and can save you from costly flood damage.Thanks for sharing this.

LIDuck · Answer

I am new to this thread and not a professional, just a homeowner with former leaks. So . . . How is your roof? Tarring around the chimney? Tarring around any vent pipes? Was the tarring done properly, lifting the roof tiles where pipes, etc come out? Where are you, do you get snow, is there an ice damn properly installed at the roof's edge under the roof shingles? Just some thoughts. Water leaks are stressful, and you are doing well to get to the bottom of the cause.

Agnes Chrzanowska · Answer

water streaping needs to be replaced and flushing

Rain water coming in walkout basement. Caulking doesn't help. Source?

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Rain water coming in walkout basement. Caulking doesn't help. Source?

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